The Good Wife's Guide

well i have done all that!!!! [nearly]

So does the "ribbon in your hair".
Ooh, Sticki, you lying Toad!

Please don't let my Hubby see this ~~ it's to late for him to start giving orders now. LOL

Can't really stop it, Amy. Can't you put an OH-proof password on?

glad I am not a good wife if you are expected to do all that stuff, I mean, arrange cushions and take his shoes off, if he is to idle to take his shoes off then he can keep them on, have him lie in the bedroom, no thanks might give him wrong idears, make the evening his, how about my evening, prepare the children, mine are in their 40's I can't prepare them, can you imagine me saying come along lets get you bathed, my son would have a fit, have a delicious meal ready, I have been cooking for two weeks now since he tried amputating his thumb, sorry this good wife guide aint for me,

It was in a woman's magazine, and the awful thing is, it was probably WRITTEN by a woman, too. I'm not so sure we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot (feet?) when we demanded emancipation and equality all that time ago: can you imagine doing all that AND holding down a highly paid, highly stressful job, too?

I can't imagine many woman doing all those daft things Gattina, that's called a slave.

And that's the way it used to be, Yorkshire.....

Men and women were both brainwashed into a certain way of thinking what a woman “ought” to be, and, not knowing it was “only” social conditioning, not nature, they went along with it.

Women probably were as keen as men to keep the status quo – reminds me a bit of the Aesop fable about the fox that lost its tail wanting all other foxes to lose theirs! And a lot of the hostility to early feminism came from women.

In the “so-good-old-days” a lot of men married to get a free housekeeper and free sex on demand – it’s only comparatively recently that rape was extended to include between married couples – before that, it was a man’s “right” and if the wife wasn’t in the mood, he could legally take it by force.

Even in the “liberated” Sixties, there were men who demanded that their dinner be ready on the table when they came home – and a judge said that a women should be physically chastised when needed, but only with a rod no thicker than the man’s thumb – “it was a pity that the defendant lost his temper and used an iron bar”.

I have a few “advice for husbands and wives” books going back to Victorian times – around the turn of the century, it’s amazing what men and women were taught to believe as being “natural”!

No doubt our current ways will seem equally quaint in another hundred or so years and people then will smile indulgently at our old-fashioned way of life.

I dont think a woman needs to wear make up, she should be appreciated as she is, but the rest of the points are fine ; )

I am not like this - I always do everything to make my love happy- try to , no flashy car nor a footballers wages - but I always scrub the place top to bottom (to her annoyance with my OCD at times :D) cook and well gardening of course ;))) main thing above all faithful, loyal and do anything possible :))))))))) we're not all bad - society mags and T.V always makes men out to be bad :((

Go Paul Go, I love you, what a Guy, Lol, well said Stevie, I am 65 and have never yet worn any type of makeup, very intresting reading Fran.,

Good gracious, Paul - they broke the mould after they made you, didn't they? Any chance of some clones?
Yorkie, if I didn't wear makeup, at least in public, they'd send out the ugly police! Stevie, you need to be very, very careful here ;o)))
I hope you fellas notice that neither the article nor I made any comment about men and their failings in general!!!!!

to turn an old phrase, Paul - good news is no news.

There's no "story" in nice people, men or women; no one will buy a mag to read about husbands and wives who don't cheat on each other, or policemen who aren't bent, or teenagers that don't go out in gangs to terorise people.

And so the truth gets distorted, and people believe it and add to it, so distorting it further.

*s* if I'd been lucky enough to meet someone like you I'd probably have been married for years now, rather than being a crabby spinster!

Hey Fran you want us to find you a good GOY woman Lol, leave it to us girls, xxx

Come on, Fran, you don't sound very "crabby" to me. It isn't that long since police refused to come out to "domestics". I remember very well OH calling them out when a neighbour was obviously getting very violent, and the PC at the other end of the line saying "We don't like to interfere between man and wife!"
My father used to get VERY cross if his dinner wasn't on the table at EXACTLY 6.00 p.m., and it deliberately made my mother's life difficult so she couldn't easily take a job to make herself some spending money.
I have to say, my OH isn't at all like that - in fact he's a very tolerant, caring, sweet man, but it took a lot of training to get him that way.....

My, how times have changed. We both work and both share all the household chores (except the ironing). This article sounds more like 'master and servant to me'!!

lol Yorkshire, a good GoY GUY would be better ...

lol Gattina, you should do a book on "training".

I can remember the times when, if a wife had her own bank account, the bank would send the monthly statements - to her husband.

And if a couple had a joint passprort, he could use it on his own, but she couldn't; if she wanted to travel without her "lord and master" she had to get a passport of her own.

And if a man snapped suddenly and killed his wife, he was often let off, but if a woman did the same it was always "murder" and she got life.

And if a woman reported a rape, the first thing the police would ask her was what she'd done to provoke it. I can remember when an all-male jury found a man gulty of rape - it actually made front-page headlines.

lol I KNOW things are different now, (at least in civilised cultures around the world - not trying to claim tht the West is the only "civilised" place!) but these are what were around me as I ws growing up, and the influences are still there, even a bit.

you would be surprised gattina!! how much of that i do/have done!!!

I just DARE NOT respond to this thread!!!!!!!!!!

well we shall have to speculate bulbaholic!!! be brave!!!

Well i can remember my dad coming in from work and going straight into the kitchen were dinner was ready for him and all I could hear was "yes dear, no dear" as she listened to him about his day. Years later I realised she was humouring him. But I also remember he always helped with the pots. My hubby has always done the pots , washing up , drying and putting them away, so I count myself lucky.

*s* each partner in a relationship will get away with as much as the other partner lets them get away with - a lot of stuff is sort of self-inflicted by not standing up for oneself, but it can be so hard to break conditioning that's so deeply inbred.

Go on, Bulb, give us your ten penn'orth!

Now, now Paul, you know what they say - SELF PRAISE IS NO RECOMENDATION, but I believe you.

Friends often ask me why I never married...I have always said it's coz I can't/won't compromise! Now I can say it's because I could not bring myself to carry out any of the above instructions :))))

If you have the manual Gattina may I suggest you put it to good use dear....

Thank heavens she is in Italy ! I can imagine the use she would put it to were she closer..;0)

Seriously, this is more or less how my Gran (dads Mum) opperated as well as holding down 4 jobs. Thing is, she always got her way..always.

You'd be surprised at how far I can throw, and with what force, too, Pim.
Oh GO ON, Bulba! You can only die once.....
Honestly, Scottish, I think many, many more modern girls are staying single these days because they won't compromise, and aren't like their Mothers and Grandmothers who knew better how to deal with a situation without a husband realising quite what was happening. My Grandmother was infinitely more intelligent than my Grandfather, and privately was very, very resentful of what was expected of her, but she did it none the less. Times change and circumstances alter cases.....

Sounds like my mums role in life, it backfired on dad in the end though as for years mum was incapable of even looking after herself let alone him and the house, which meant a complete turnaround in their lives.
Had a chuckle Gattina and came to the conclusion that I`ve been a lousy wife...

Me, too.

that was a joke!

I think it's a very good starting point for conducting oneself in life - be kind.

WooooooooooooooW Paul, that's awesome!

lol Scottish, I won't settle for half a loaf, either - give and take is all very well, but when one does all the giving and the other does all the taking.

As with other social conditioning, the answer is education: boys should be brought up to be able to cook and sew, and girls should be brought up to be able to put up shelves or change the washer on a tap.

When I was at Grammar school in the mid-60s, cookery and woodwork were strictly segreated by gender: after all, boys would live at home till they got married, so they woudn't need to know how to cook, and girls would aslo stay at home till marriage, so they wouldn't need to know DIY

yeah, right

Well not really quite pathetic!

grins, I can still remember how disappointed I was one Christmas - my bro got a toy carpentry set, with hammer and saw and T-square and all that - I got a "mother's little helper" toy broom and dustpan, duster and all that.

Talk about preparing you for the rest of your life ...

Nothing pathetic about being Kind and considerate..Paul.
As long as your OCD does not include cleaning skirting boards..Things are fine.

Pimpernel I scrub the rocks in the garden :D

I remember that now....Oh my!

no wonder girls keep away lol

lol Paul, the wrong kind of girls keep away - maybe one day there'll be the right girl who wo'nt mind

Doubt that ! Besides I love plants more than anything lol ;)))

that's only cos you've not met Ms Right - just as I've not met Mr Right (only Mr want-it-right-now!)

.

they say there's someone for everyone somehwere in the world ... just my luck if my "someone" is in Papua New Guinea or not going to be born for another hundred years

lol - true for me definitely

I see Stevietheterrible is living up to his name - another ridiculous (but funny) comment!

Was this written in the 1840s or 50s or what?

if its funny its not ridiculous!

No comment (yes, I know that's a comment).

I remember when my grandmother told me with pride that my grandfather had said to her....."You know what I like about you Amy... you know your place!!!"
I do all the cooking in our house partly because my husband is the worse cook I have ever met. I encourage him at lunchtime with simple tasks, but he likes to tell everyone we meet, that I get tea and hot buttered toast with honey in bed every morning!!! :o) I made breakfast the first 25 years with no merit badge. I do enjoy this luxury. :o)))))))))))))))
I have taught my two sons well.

*s* why is that men can put a rocket on the moon but claim not to be able to sew on a button or boil an egg?

I think one of the little things OH does that annoys the Hell out of me is find it necessary to give me an entire, blow-by-blow account of everything he has done - "I've put the boiler on, fed the cats, filled the kettle, opened the front door, put my washing by the cellar, and done a shopping list..."
Waddya want, a medal? I do ten times as much as he does, in a third of the time, every day, as a matter of course, and we both take it for granted, (well, he would only notice if I didn't do it) but I have to give him brownie points and a standing ovation every time he blows his nose....The other thing is, WHY does he need to ask me where something is before he looks for it. "I can't find the milk" So I have to stop what I'm doing, come downstairs and go and open the fridge for him to demonstrate that it's exactly where it should be, as usual, in the door shelf. WHY does he find this so difficult?
Rant over.

Well what can I say,women just arn`t what they used to be hahaha!

Well, thank goodness for that!

Hahaha!!!!!!!

I have noticed that, if here I use the phrase "Devo chiedere al Capo." (I shall have to ask the boss), all the Italian women fall around, weak with laughter.
There's very little daytime television here, so each morning the towns and villages and bars are always completely packed with old men, just standing round, vacant-eyed. We used to think they were gathering for some event, but no, it's just that in order to get their housework done, the old women kick their husbands out of the house so that they aren't under their feet and getting in the way.

lol I'd hand mine a duster and tell him to get busy ...

Well its 4am and I cant sleep so been catching up with things here..I think I might have woke the neighbours up lolling at all this. I quite like to be a 'slave' at times but then Rick isnt permenantly here so its kinda different for me..I WANT to please him.
Dont agree with Stevie..Oh man if you could see me without make-up on you wouldnt be saying that! lol
and ten out of ten to Paul for being sucha caring b/f!
great blog! :)))))))))))))))

Your 'find' Gattina, reminded me of why I left my ex and how lucky I am to have found my soul-mate! Despite ME being at work all day, ex still expected all the 'privileges' described in that horrendous document. More fool me .... I tolerated it - while trying to fight it - for 25 years until I finally snapped and set out to find life. Found it! Love it! I suggest as many GoY laydeees as possible meet at Gattina's place and dance round a bonfire made up of all such documents and books!! ;o)

I have read this before at some time in the past,and unbelievable that this is how it used to be,in a lot of cases..Our grandparents didn't really know anything else..no media as such,to let them know there were alternatives,or women's rights etc,so naturally it was passed down as the norm..In defense of the men..not all of them..they have changed a lot too..women didn't go out to work then,..too busy making pretty ribbons to greet OH,scouring steps,making all their own bread,dragging heavy rag rugs outside and beating the hell out of them,boiling all that washing and starching those white collars etc,seeing to the kids,etc..that was on a Monday..!..thank god things have changed..and so have the men...most of our generation went to work,and still do,but the choice was there,so things had to change,in most cases..I can't remember mine ever not helping ...ok,he doesn't cook,but makes a great bacon sarnie, and does a lot of cleaning..and yes,Pimp,he does do skirting boards ! :o)...I think most help out a lot,and enjoy their leisure time together..saying that,it is nice to have your own space now and then..especially in retirement..I am more than happy to be a bit of a 'slut' as regards housework now.."go,Russell..get that duster out,you missed a bit ..I'm off to meet ladies who lunch ":o))
Imagine saying that,50 years ago !

when I was boatbuilding I used to pop next door to the sailmakers unit in the lunch break to talk bikes. Big bearded Harley-Davidson riding guys with hands that could pull ya head off doing the most exacting hand stitching on multi thousand pound sail plans.
I'd defy anyone to tell them it's womens work !!!! I'd be there with the camera rolling on movie mode when that person finds themselves stitched to the rafters ;-))) btw: my youngest lad now a 31 year old 6' 2" lad goes to the gym, comes home, cooks a meal while taking care of his son Camden then makes sure his partner puts her feet up when she gets home from work with a cuppa.He learnt that from me, now married 36 years. I told my 3 kids when they were old enough to understand the 'work ethic' "never be too proud to push a broom" ( broom pushing has helped me put bread on the table many times when the kids were young ) they all work hard & have good family relations. Now, where did I put my Marigolds ???

Oh, Bampy! You are a treasure! You remind me of my Granddad (Father's father) who was a tough little soul. He was a captain in the Merchant navy out of West Hartlepool, and this is long enough ago, that he, too knew a bit about sailmaking (He was born, if I am working it out properly, round about 1880). The palms of his hands were so hardened and calloused, he used to boast that he could push a sailmakers' needle through canvas without the leather hand protector. He can only have been about 5'3", but he was a powerhouse of energy. After my Grandmother died, he would come and spend his summers with us, and I loved him so much. So did my Mum. She would go into the kitchen and find all the vegetables already prepared, the floors swept, and the windows cleaned. He never expected any medals, he just got on with it. At the age of 84, the entire family failed to stop him climbing up onto the roof to paint the chimney stack and replace some ridge tiles. Fiercely independent and very lovable. I think he was secretly a bit ashamed of the way my Father expected to waited on, but he was also very proud of him as the son who escaped the working class, and put on a "white collar." He was a prisoner of war in Japan for two years and never spoke of it (long before WW2), and a whizz with the hoover. He was very tough with me and my brother, too, and told us off for dropping blazers and satchels on the floor when we came in from school. We fought for his approval, so we became shamefaced little angels. He did all the cooking and cleaning in his own home, too, me Grandmother becoming a virtual "invalid" with "blood pressure" (High? Low?) the moment he retired. He was a complete softie, too. Perfect combination. I still miss him.

I identify with your grandad, sending PM on said subject shortly.

Your grandfather sounds like a lovely man. Although my husband Barry 'reports' things Gattina ie. the lightswitch outside the bathroom is dirty!!! he is very good at sorting and making things ex. the rustic bench. I suppose as long as we each stick to our strengths and do our bit, all is calm.

My Grampy BlackJack..was nimble with a needle as you know Cattina.

Wish I'd known my grandparents better, but there was "family history" that I've never bothered to try to unravel. All I know about my dad's parents is that his dad had been in WW1 and his mum had been one of the first women to be allowed into Cambridge (or was it Oxord?) and I know even less about mum's. Makes things a bit hard in the researching-family-tree line - I can't even go back two generations.

But even apart from that, the stories they could have told; what life was like back then, oral history about real things and real people. Sigh. Maybe us oldies should start "memory scrapbooks" for kids and grandkids - not big personal events, but what life was like when we were kids ourselves - everyday stuff that's not everyday any more.

I have (somewhere in the depths of the attic) a picture of my Great Grandmother with her four daughters (Notice, non of the men), wearing expressions each grimmer than the last, taken round about 1900. There didn't seem to be much to smile about in those days.
Here they have a rather sweet habit of holding the occasional "Old days" evenings, where the oldies in the community tell the "youngies" how things were done back before WW2, and demonstrating how all these ancient tools and artefacts that the local farmhouses and barns are stuffed with were used. Touching.

There are "oral history" groups round here, but I think that's mainly people comparing notes, rather than informing their younger family members

My next door neighbour,who is in her eighties now,typed all her life experiences down ,for her grandchildren,and future generations,should they be interested..and one of them made it into a little book for her..I have often thought of making a record of mine,but so far,they are still in my head..As I have a good memory,they are still vivid,so I should make the effort ,in case I lose my marbles ! :o)

you should have a go - maybe several files, as you remember something, make a new "chapter" and when you think you have enough, get it printed.

There are online publishers that will do books, some of them quite cheaply - Lulu springs to mind, and I think there's one called Buzz as well.

If only I'd thought to ask my granparents questions when they would have been able to answer ...

news reports often talk about bad weather in terms of "in living memory" but that's what, seventy or eighty years? if only we had more "ordinary people" writing about their lives - not "celebs" from earlier ages, or biased bios about royalty - real people.

I read about a museum, they were asking for household objects from old times, and were having trouble getting any - ordianry stuff, who keeps it for posterity? There should be a library dedicated to ordinary people's memories that anyone could browse!

oh, and thanks, Gattina, for posting such an interesting and thought-provoking topic!

I agree Fran..to us it is 'ordinary' but to future generations it would be 'how did they manage,living like that '? ..As for so called 'Celebrities writing their autobiographies as young as 30'ish..,what is that all about ? ..just money and publicity..As we often say.."I could write a book " ..pity we don't eh? .I was lucky to have a big family on my Mothers side,and they talked,and laughed a lot ,about past experiences..I loved listening to their stories, on a winters night,in front of a roaring fire..and my Grandma sitting in her chair smiling,but not saying much..not that she had a lot to smile about,in her youth..2 young step children to start her married life,8 of her own,and a few miscarriages..!..old age was her best time,I think..but lots of happy memories for me..:o)))

If any of you are interested in the "ordinary woman's" memories, try getting hold of two books - Nella Last's War, and Nella Last's Peace. Fascinating. The first was dramatised and broadcast with Victoria Wood in the title role under the title "Housewife, 49" I think she got an Emmy or some such award for it.

About 400 yards from where I live there was a was an old Victorian wash house, still in use in to the late 1980's.
The women here really miss it. They all had washing machines and dryers of their own, but would would rather carry bags of washing down to the Wash House and do the washing with their neighbours. Using big copper boilers and mangles..So there must have been a little joy in all that drudgery..?

No, Pimpernel, there is very little joy in drudgery, but there is little or no social life in your own kitchen. You might not believe it, but there are still communal wash places here - just a big concrete slab and cold running water, and some women still use it and congregate for a darned good natter. I'm not surprised your local ladies miss their wash house.

That was a very good point well made Gattina..!

I saw that drama with Victoria Wood,Gattina..she played the part brilliantly,and her award was well deserved..mind you,I like her a lot anyway,for her style of humour,so maybe I am a bit biased.:o)

Yea , Right !! hehe :)

Bloomer, having mentioned the TV production with Victoria Wood (One of our all-time favourites, too - amazingly talented in so many ways) I went and got the books off the shelf again last night and have started re-reading them. Incredibly moving, beautifully written and very, very interesting. I just about remember this era, and it all seems so familiar. She must have been about the same generation as my Grandma, whose house I started my childhood in. If you can get hold of these books (Amazon will have them) you'll love them, I can guarantee. I'm sure you'd enjoy them too, Pim.

I might go to the Library and see if they have them,Gattina..sound good..I don't buy books now,limited space since we moved here..I went to see her stage show in Sheffield,when she used to tour..a few years ago now..and around the time she had started her TV comedy series..We never laughed as much,..she was brilliant...remember her 'Kimberley 'sketch ? Lol...They still show her 'Dinner ladies' series on Sky gold..and we watch them often..still find them funny:o)

It's a very sad thing, Bloomer, but Daughter knows off by heart, and can reproduce faithfully, funny accents, movements and all of everything V. Wood has ever done. Sign of a mis-spent youth.

Not sad at all,Gattina..she has good taste in comedy..I remember sitting on the next till to my best friend,at work..as she held up an item,shouting 'Red Cabbage,how much? '..and me replying'Red cabbage,don't know ' ! It's wonder we didn't get the sack..but our customers knew where the remark had come from,and joined in the laughter..in the days before scanners,we had to price them manually and on the right department key..sometimes..! They probably had a lot of items keyed in as meat or bread that day..a nightmare for stock control..ah,those were the days :o) .She is still a best friend,and we meet up on a regular basis..still both as daft..Lol.

No, No, Bloomer, it's "Red Cabbage, How much?" and the reply is "Red Cabbage - NO IDEA!" I'm pretty sad myself! We (Daughter & I) still, in shoe shops, when a shoe is just too high for my dodgy ankles and I am about to ask for something with a lower heel, turn to each other and mutter, in perfect unison "Flatter now!" in our best Julie Walters voice, or, in a restaurant, when the waiting staff is a little doddery, "One soup..... and another soup!". Goodness, I hope you remember these too, or I'm going to sound like a raving loonie.

Of course I remember! Acorn Antiques was priceless ! Lol.Love Julie Walters too..:o).We used to go to a little bar,on holiday in Lido de Jesolo,and we always called it Mrs Overalls ! :o)..She was a lovely lady,but it took you most of the evening to get a couple of drinks .:o))

Its hard to imagine any woman really taking that good wife guide seriously. But times change (for the better I'd say lol). Just shown my mum the good wife guide and after much laughter her comment was "I'll stick with being a bad wife" lol.

On a side note, love Victoria Wood, soo funny. I've watched Dinnerladies so many times now, doesn't matter how many times you watch its still funny. They showed Dinnerladies at the Grand in Wolverhampton (theater) last year. Different cast of course (apart from Tony). Absolutely brilliant show.

Glad to see you have a good sense of humour,Samjp..and I never tire of her humour either..I love all the cast in D.Ladies.:o).It would be great,if she did a 'come back' tour,with all the old routines,wouldn't it ? wishful thinking.!

Lol Bloomer, one of my teachers in junior school once told my parents that I had a very eccentric sense of humor lol. With my job its a case of you don't have to be mad but it helps, with my family its a pre-requisite lol. Yeah it would be good to see a come back, I'd go see that.

I learned what the word "facetious" meant when I was about 6, due to a very sour-faced, humourless old bat (she was probably only in her thirties) of a teacher who was describing my character to my parents, and said she thought they should take firmer control of my upbringing. Any attempt at wit should be severely curtailed until I could "exercise judgement". I'm afraid they didn't manage to curb it at all. So it's all down to rotten parents, you see.

Just to jump in on the VWood sketches - we often have soup for lunch these chilly days, and I ALWAYS deliver it to Partner with the immortal words "One soup ........." What's life if not a laugh! I was often chastised at school by 'sour-faced humourless old bats' for merely smiling! And I know full well that if I didn't have my idiotic sense of humour - I wouldn't have my lovely Partner! Greatest medicine ever - laughter!

Oh dear..I can see a new saying,next time we have soup ! Lol...I agree, being miserable doesn't change a thing,so better to be positive,than negative...and not many of the ''what ifs'' either.. it may never happen..! just depends on what life throws at you,though..sometimes unavoidable..but easier to come through the other side,depending on your attitude,and situation...been there,done that..it works :o))...so does gardening.!

My lips turn up at the corners quite a bit. Whenever I was in the Headmasters office (quite often) I would not only get punished for my crime...Usually backchat...but get an additional ticking off for smirking.

Can you imagine that..backchat indeed ! you must have been very brave..I think 'smiling'was sometimes allowed,but never smirking Lol....and more listening than speaking too..but we got there in the end,Pimp..:o)

One man's smile is another man's smirk.......I once got my face slapped by a teacher on my first day at a new school for not having any homework on my desk. Can't imagine that happening these days. She never said sorry, either when she found out the reason. My parents weren't even interested. I seemed to spend my entire childhood feeling vaguely guilty about something or other I was supposed to have done or not done, and I was a really good little girl.

Ah, the "good old days" of casual brutality at school ... we had a teacher whod' hit kids over the head with a text book, and not a small one, either. And one teacher actually had a fight in class with one of the kids.

In five yers at Gramar School, the only time we ever got close to a musical instrument was to learn how to find middle C on the piano (find the lock and go so many keys down - very useful in these days of no-lid no-lcok keyboards!). And that wasn't till our 4th year.

Jimmy had been off sick when we'd done that; in the next lesson, he was called out to demonstrate; he told the teacher that he hadn't been there the previous lesson, but the teacher insisted, so Jimmy started plinking up and down the keyboard at random. We started giggling, and the teacher hit him round the back of the head ... and Jimmy hit bim back.

It spilled out into the corridor, and kids from neighbouring classrooms spilled out too; "go on, Jim! go on, Jim!" I don't remember who stopped it or how,but I bet Jimmy got all the blame - in those days children were supposed to meekly accept being abused by their "elders and betters" I don't remember the teacher suddenly disappearing as would happen if he'd been suspended.

Other than that, music lessons were five years of boredom, we had to sit and isten while he read us "enthralling" stories about how Bach etc grew up. Sometimes it wa so interesteing that we'd go into a coma - if that was typical music teaching, no wonder so mnay people think that classical music= boredom.

And I resent hat on many levels: kids today actually get taught to play instruments, and how to read music. And when I started performing poetry, I'd do a couple of songs (a capaella, of course!) and someone told me that I had perfect pitch. I thought that meant that I always hit the right note, or at least was always painfully aware when I or others didn't.

Remembered this a couple of years ago and looked it up - apparently, "perfect pitch" means being able to name any note that you hear - which only works if you were taught the names of the damn notes to begin with. Sigh, and for years I took some considerable consolation in being told that I had a "perfect" anything ...

ps just noticed thta my comment is the 94th. Wonder who's going to break the ton?

Daughter was a brilliant flautist when she was young, belonged to a national children's orchestra, took part in "Young Musician of the Year" (didn't get very far) Got Distinction (highest mark possible) at grade 8 (as high as it goes) when she was 13 (not expected to do it until you're 18) and played on BBC tv, but her music teacher deliberately excluded her from the school concert, because she didn't learn at school, but had an outside teacher, and was what they described as "An awkward cuss" No wonder! I'd have been one too, if they'd done that to me. It was one of the very few times I took her part against the school and kicked up a hell of a fuss. Sorted. I'm not particularly proud of what I did, but that once it was necessary.

how petty of that taecher! - did they want to display the children's talents or show off their own? "Look how clever I am, they learned all this from ME!"

What an achievement for your daughter to have got that far, even if "not very far" - does she still play?

My sister got her daughters musical tuition "because I want them to have what I never had". Bt as dad said later, she should try bringing up five kids on £3 10/= a week.

I never used to tell my mum if I got told off at school after the response to the first time "you probably deserved it".

I'd like to think we've come a long way since the 'acceptable abuse' most of us oldies suffered at the hands of schoolteachers in the name of Discipline but, sad to say, I think it's just that the goalposts have been moved and now the school children suffer 'mental abuse' in the form of sarcasm etc. which can do just as much harm and is more difficult to prove or eradicate. Towards the end of my school career we had a supply teacher - male - who had to regularly take a class of girls while the boys were doing something wonderful with wood or metal and he started off his introduction with "Can't think why they put me with this class! I'm a mysogynist. Look it up! Don't expect any leeway from me!" then spent the lessons sneering at our answers and generally making us feel like the lowest of the low. Then, when we 'formed a committee' and took our complaints to our own teacher we were brushed aside and told "don't be silly!" The very fact that I remember it so well shows how the experience ingrained itself into my brain! Unfortunately this kind of mental abuse is still practised today!

Sadly true - and, equally sadly, this kind of abuse can become "hereditary"; people suffer from it, grow up with the effects of it, and pass it on.

I told a teacher to shut up once! In our 5th year, we were "doing" Lord of the Flies for our CSE (shows how long ago it was!) He raed a bit out - something white and billowing in the dark, scared the kids in the story; he asked what we thought it was. I had no doubts. "The pilot's parachute," I said promptly.

"Oh, that's what Biggles would have done, is it?" he smirked (the fact that I preferred reading Biggles to girlie books helped to make my schooldays *so* pleasurable).

I mumbled something, he said, "Speak up," I hesitated and said, "Sbut up, it's no business of yours what I read."

"If you feel like that, get out," he said - if we were sent out of class, we had to report to the headmaster and explain why. "No," I said. "Well, as Frances can't take a joke ..." he said to the rest of the class and carried on with the book.

I wasn't being particularly brave or bolshy; I'd just had enough of being picked on - it got to be such a fun sport that even a couple of teachers had joined in. But a coward as well as a bully! Use his position to humiliate me, then, when I turn it back, use his "authority", which I also turned back on him.

Comedian Mark Steel did a series of "lectures" on BBC radio; he said that teachers aren't trained to teach, they're trained to instill discipline. Not even that, these days! a bit of discipline - a bit, not beating kids up physically or emotionally - is neccessary. But now the teachers are being bullied by the kids. There's something gone seriously wrong somewhere.

Our teachers expected, and got, very high levels of respect, and pretty much had power of life and death over us, and some of them, but not many, abused that dreadfully. Nowadays, the parents don't discipline their children, and the teachers aren't allowed to, so there is a generation of anarchistic, violent, disturbed youngsters who are not going to make good adults. I wouldn't be a teacher under any circumstances. My mother was very scathing of teachers, and said on many occasions "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach!" Seeing that she was one herself - and a very good one, too, it seemed a strange thing to say, but maybe she had insider knowledge.

I would have loved to have been a teacher, too, back in the days before they need to wear a suit of armour! Young' uns - I preferred Cubs [8-12] to Scouts [12-16]- their minds were more open, one could [I hope subtly] get them thinking.

We did a session at Cubs once: I asked them what colour God was. White, they said in a tone of "of course". So I explained how few of our genes are actually concerned with skin colour. and talked about God being evry colour and every religion. The next week one of the Catholic boys brought in his robe and explained what he did as a server in church; the week after, a Muslim lad brought in his prayer mat and explained baout praers, and washing, and so on. I

t was fascinating to hear kids talking about God and Jesus totally unselfconsciously, to watch them learning about alternative beliefs f- not from an adult lecturing them or wagging a finger, rom their mates, who used to clog them at footy. Don't think I could have done that with boys of Scout age.

It never fails to "amuse" me when people blame everything on schools - drunken foul-mouthed obese parents don't seem to think that the example that they're setting could be improved! The influence of school can't be avoided: when I was spending a few days with my bro's family, their sone came home from nursery school with a new word he'd lerned there, which had four letters. but they managed to cure him of it without any kind of threat or violence [think they said that only silly people say that, and he was much too clever, something like that, but not sure, and eventually he stopped, maybe also because he wasn't geting the reaction he was after]

*s* when people wonder why society is so corrupt, I just shrug and say that we're following our leaders!

*s* this is comment 99 - whoever comes after me will put it into three figures ... correction! I broke the ton! coo

Well done, Fran. At least they taught you to count!

lol eventually! I posted and went up to check, it said 99, so I added the ps. then came back to the thread, and it said 100. went to bottom to see who'd added, no one had, mine was the last, went back up, and it definitely said 100 so I added the pps

To your comment about parents blaming 'lack of discipline' on schools, Fran; I worked as a school secretary for around 10 years, first as a 'temp' in Infant and Junior schools, then permanently in a Junior and a Secondary school. The Head of the Secondary used to sigh and say "Of course, by the time the kids get here - it's too late!" The Head of the Junior school used to sigh and say "Of course, by the time they get here - it's too late!" The Head of the Infant school used to sigh and say "Of course, by the time they get here, it's too late!" So ..... right back at'cha, Parents! Will they ever realise the Buck STARTS with them the day the child is born?

When Daughter was nearly five, she started at the local infants school, already very articulate and literate, (she already had a reading age of eight, and had been assessed as "Gifted") happy and full of life and energy, enthusiasm and opinions. By the time she reached her fifth birthday, a few months later, she was a sullen, difficult, uncommunicative child who lay on her back and had screaming tantrums, and was wetting her bed - something she had hardly ever done before. At the start of the new term I was chatting to her headmistress who gaily told me "Ah, Yes! She was very full of herself when she first arrived, but we soon knocked that out of her!" There was absolutely no way that the "Knocking" meant anything physical, but she had obviously been squashed and put down at every available opportunity, and was from then on a changed, resentful, joyless and furtive little girl who hated school. It changed her pretty much for ever. I never forgave the headmistress or the other teachers, who obviously just wanted a quiet, obedient set of children.

so true, Nariz - "give me a child unti he's seven and he's mine for life" - or something to that effect. Granted, school and society exert pressure to conform to current trends, but the basic patterning starts (literally!) from Day One. We learn by example, by copying what's around us, good or bad.

But we seem to have a culutre whose ethos is "it's not my fault!" Parents deny tht they have any input into their child's development - that's the school's duty.

People deny that they have any responsibility for their own actions (they've obviously never been taught about cause and effect, that actions have reactions). Whatever they do, it's never their fault - the blame always lies somewhere else.

I saw a news report, years ago: a teenager was killed by a train while graffiti'ing a railway bridge; social workers said that "society's to blame" because the kid was bored and had nothing else to do. Lots of teens are bored, but they don't go ruond defacing public property.

A female bank robber in the US sued the police for shooting her during a robbery: her case was that she'd been arrested before, and been released: if the police hadn't released her she couldn't have done the next robbery and so wouldn't have been shot. Never seems to have occurred to her that she had a choice in the matter.

http://www.stellaawards.com/

oh, Gattina!! I feel for your daughter, I really do - that's spiritual manslaughter! or murder, as the headmistress knew what she was doing and did it deliberately.

That school was nothing more than a factory, stamping out "citizens" to a regulation size and pattern, forcing all children to fit the mould even if they had to have bits cut off them to fit .

Human society in microcosm - we're all twisted to fit what society wants, rather than it conforming to what we want and need. Social conditioning works on all levels, but rarely as obvious or as obviously brutal as that.

But mediocrity is always jealous of talent: what it can't understand it drags down to its own level, no matter the damage it causes. It can feel smugly righteous at "knocking" people down to its own level of stupidity.

Hear, hear, Fran. You should always seek to level upwards rather than downwards.
We were told off for teaching Daughter to read by the time she was 2 and a half, instead of leaving it to her teachers. We didn't have a lot of choice since she used to trail around the house, carrying books, continually pestering me with "Mummy, What's that say, Mummy? - Mummy, what's that word, Mummy? until I could have screamed. It was quicker to tell her.
She got incredibly bored because she wasn't stretched mentally, and then, in junior school, luckily, a rather fierce but perceptive teacher put her and two rather bright boys up a year with children a year older, and, apart from correcting (tactless, but she was right) her teacher when he got things wrong, and told him off for smoking, she blossomed. Of course, when she got to the end of her time there, she had to repeat her last year, which was a disaster. Her report at the end of her first year at Grammar school was the sort we would have gladly written out in neon letters 6' high and posted on the front of the house, but it was downhill all the way from there on in. She was labelled a "Clever Clogs", a "Swat", "Teachers' pet" etc., by her peers, and, quite understandably, at age 11, wanted to be liked by them and turned into a rebellious, rude, hurtful, smart-mouthed, nasty, lazy brat. We could do nothing with her, and her teachers branded her a "problem child". And she was. She still is, at the age of nearly 40, very prickly and anti-social. Where did we do wrong?

You did nothing "wrong", unless you took her out of school and educated her at home. Stupid people can be spiteful, no matter their age.

I had much the same thing at school: there was no such thing as children who had problems, only children who *were* problems - and no one bothered to find out why.

Mum taught all of us to read and write before we started junior school - not a lot, but we could write our names and read simple words. And during the summer holidays we'd play schools; she'd be teacher and set us little sums and spelling and stuff. My youngest bro brought a note home from school asking her not to - they were teaching kids phonetically (ah, buh, kah, duh etc) and mum taught us the old-fashioned way, and he was getitng "confused".

I was bored a lot at school; I couldn't see the point of a lot of it, and didn't bother exerting myself. Give me something that interested me, and I'd really go for it, but ... so much didn't.

I'd have tried dumbing down if that had occurred to me, but it wouldn't have done any good - a lot of us went from the same primary school to the same grammar school, and they told the new kids about me, and no one wanted to know.

I soon learned not to be the first to put my hand up in class, then not to put it up at all, even if I kenw the answer - protective camouflage.

But I found that I should "keep my hand down" even at work: it didn't do to solve problems too quickly, or indeed at all - I sorted a prob with my supervisor's PC after she and her supervisor had tried and failed; to have succeeded where they had failed didn't do me any good, it was four years before I got my next "annual" increase in salary.

*s* I'm a bit pricly myself, or can be on certain subjects: such as ...

I won't dumb down now; any person who wants me to pretend to be more stupid than are to protect their own ego is too stupid to be worth bothering with.

I was in a trivia quiz channel in irc: someone messaged me to say it waa unfair that I got so many points. I thought about it, and left a message the next day, saying, basicaly, Tough. Going arund whingeing because I know more or type faster than you won't make you any better. The world won't slow down to protect your ego. Come up to my level, and then we'll be equal, rather than forcing equality by dragging me down to yours. *s* I said a lot more than that, but that's the gist of it.

We live in an age where it's "not fair" that some people win and others lose; it damages their ego, and stunts their development. I've learned more by losing than by winning - it makes me think of what I did, or didn't do, and try new things, so that I'll do better next time.

Of course, no one likes to be steam-rollered! I played chess with a workmate, but only once: she beat me in five moves. It was too quick for me to learn anything. When I fenced, I'd fence with newbies, I made sure that I slowed down a bit to give them a bit of a chance: I'd let it go to four-all, then had to make sure that I got the final hit! I'm sure they learned more from that than if I'd beaten them five-nil, as I probably could have done.

The problem with limiting oneself is that it's habit-forming: and that's a habit that's so hard to break.

But not limiting oneself is "showing off", I've been told, and that's wrong, sigh...

The family won't play Trivial pursuits with me any more - "You've learned the answers". !!!! No, I KNEW the answers.
I went to work for a company where the branch manager knew his job very well, but was barely literate. He asked me to type some letters for him and wrote them out longhand. I wasn't a typist, but did them, nonetheless, correcting his grammar, punctuation, spelling and general mistakes which would have marked him down as rather ignorant. Boy, did he get angry! He said I was to type them exactly as he wrote them and I refused, point blank. That didn't go down very well, but they couldn't sack me, 'cos I was the only one who knew how to balance the books. I was never popular, though, and life was extremely difficult after that. Daughter doesn't suffer fools gladly, and has frequently lost boyfriends who think she's "too much of an intellectual snob." We've advised her to dumb down, but it won't wash. It's very lonely being perfect!!! ;o(((

tell me about it! [har-har]. last bloke I went out with only lasted two dates - I tole him that I wasn't going to lower my standards any more; he'd have to come up to my level (that sounds nasty, and probably was, but he'd dented my trust fairly severely - we'd ben talking, and he not only emailed his friend what I'd told him, but forwarded her reply to me, saying that she thought I was a closet lesbian with masochistic tendencies!! He reckoned he hadn't betrayed me because he hadn't told anyone I knew, but to me it was the act of telling someone else what you were told - I woudn't have told him half what I did if I'd thought he was going to broadcast it.)

I'd never played Triv, til my sis brought a set round mum's. I had a go, lerning the rules as we went along: I finished first, and sat there for a while, watching the others; that was boring, so I took out my pie pieces and started again - and fnished second last. I must have hurt my sis, who finished last, but I hadn't been showing off; I was just lucky with the quetions - and I knew a lot of answers! Mother raised her eyebrows, and said "Looks like there is some point to reading, after all," and I thought, yeah, I read so many books just so I can win at trivial Triv!

Sis wouldn't let me play after that, which hurt me a bit, but fair enough, I suppose. The next time I played, with other people, I had the floor wiped with me, which restored my balance a bit *s*

Me and dad were a formidable pair when it came to Quiz Nights - teams had to be of six or eight, but, all modesty aside, we were the backbone. But even then I'd hold back to let someone else answer first before I pitched in.

The prob with holding back so that you don't hurt anyone else is that you hurt yourself - you put boundaries on yourself, and you end up not letting yourself do anything, just in case ... if we've got these abilities, surely they're meant to be used - and used to the full: what's the point of having them otherwise?

I've tried correcting other people's letters while I was typing them, and it didn't go down at all well with them, either. One of my supervisors used a dictaphone - or tried to - he talked into the speaker, so I had to explain how to use it. Then he dictated a whole letter with only one bit of punctuation. I was used to punctuating from tone of voice, pauses and so on, so I typed it as it sounded. But he dicated a whole paragraph, which I duly typed, only to hear "no, say this instead" and had to go back and take out the whole damn thing. Sigh.

If people objected to my amendments, I'd take them out, but I'd also take out my initials from the "reference number" - we used to use initials of sender , initials of typist, then date. Someone asked why once, and I said I didn't want whoever got the leter to think that it had been typed by a semi-literate!

Oh, here's a classic from 'way back, just remembered. I used to buy postage stamps in tens - before they did booklets, ten was easy because you just add a zero to the price. Stamps were 10p then (said it was a long time ago!) and so I asked for ten 10p stamps - and watched in total disbelief as she used a calcuator to work out the total!!!!

I'd put "LOL", but it really isn't funny, is it?

I've just read your 'conversation' Fran and Gattina, and so much of it applies to me too - apart from the learning to 'dumb down' for my own benefit. I never would! What you see is what you get! If you don't like it - go somewhere else! Didn't win me any friends either. AND I spent my last job (before I happily retired) being a 'walking dictionary' for the rest of the staff and correcting everybody's punctuation - or simply adding it to non-punctuated letters! When I left I had a wicked giggle at the thought of the dreadfully inarticulate letters some of the 'high and mighty' would receive from my ex-colleages!

I also suffered from being 'knocked back' like your daughter, Gattina. I was bright - not TOO clever - feisty and sporty and apparently my teacher's Nemesis! Only ONE teacher ever appreciated me and saw what could be done, and for one school year I blossomed into a mathematical genius to everyones' amazement - especially mine! Then, new year, new teacher - back I went and even now I can add 2 + 2 several times and get a different answer every time!

Being a School Secretary at the same levels as my daughters' travel through school gave me an 'insight' and also a 'special pass' into the intricacies of being a teacher, and I was often able to reset the balance of various injustices and - because I was 'approachable' - also managed (I hope - permanently) to convince several parents to change their views for the sake of their childrens' education. As you say, Gattina - it's not really funny!

Sadly for me, the dumbing down started long before school - I grew up knowing that I was stupid - I had to be stupid, or why would people laugh at me so much? (Apart from constantly being told that I was). Even when I was sure that someone was wrong I didn't say anything, because I knew I was stupid and they'd only laugh at me even more.

This lasted all through my schooldays and long beyond: it was only in my 30s that I did one of those Mensa IQ tests - I hoped for something around the middle of average, but thought that was being too optimistic. I was very surprised when I got the results - they scored me very highly and invited me in for a supervised test. I went, mainly to make sure that they hadn't made a mistake the first time! I did the supervised test and got exactly the same score: 155 out of 160 which, they said, put me in the top 1% of the population.

My first reaction was one of fury: all this time I'd sincerely beleived that I was stupid; now I found that if anyone was stupid, it wasn't me. All this time I'd been aplogising for living - if I'd been encouraged instead of knocked back, what might I have achieved? Where might I be now?

I'm still a bit ambivalent about it - when I shyly mentioned it just after I found out, I got had a go at. So I tried to find a way that people did'nt find threatening. I'd say that IQ is like penis size, it does'nt matter how big it is, it's what you do with it that counts!

*s* long before GoY, I used to use a gardening metaphor: the soil in my garden might be richer than someone else's, but that's no use unless I actually grow stuff in it! The soil in someone else's garden might not be as rich as mine, but they can produce better flowers than me by working at it.

This is partly why I'm so bolshy now about dumbing down - I'm trying to break the early conditioning and I won't do that by carrying it on! My attitude now is: here's me, there's the door, take your pick. I refuse to make myself less than I now know I am just to salve someone else's ego. It took me long enough to get off my knees and stand upright (even if very wobbly!); I'm not going back there again. Half a loaf isn't better than none.

But ... my early conditioning is still working: it feels like "showing off" or "boasting" to be right, to know the answers to questions almost before they're asked, or to put people straight when you know damn well that they're wrong.

I think, when I can find the way to accept it, then I won't care what other people think. When!

I cringe when I hear parents mocking or belittling their children, especially in public - I want to march up to them and give them a mouthful. I remember, oh, decades ago, seeing a woman with a young girl in the street. The woman had the girl by one wrist and was literally dangling her off the ground and swinging her round and round. "I don't effing care if it is your effing birthday, effing shut up or I'll effing wallop you!" The kid might bave been a pain all morning, but what kind of birthdays does that woman now remember?

Oh! just remembered something that I thoguht of earlier, and promptly forgot: a male friend and I had discussed taking the friendship a bit further, but he started laying down conditions, and I backed off. I'd just started coming out of my shell, a bit, and I refused to go back init - why should I drop out of school just when I'm starting to learn new things, to please someone else when it'd be to my own detriment?

Sorry, that probably counts as TMI. We need a "delete post" option - or at least I do!

semi-literacy seems to be bereditary: people who aren't very good at reading won't have many books around the house, so their children grow up in a book-free environment, and so grow up not to be great book-readers, and don't have many books about the house ... and public libraries are closing more, when they're not closing down altogether, so there's even less chance of people having access to books.

My borough doesn't have libraries any more, it has "Ideas Stores", and the idea seems to be that books aren't necessary: there's a large PC area and PC training suites and performance halls and meeting rooms - oh, yes, and a few books.

I used to donate all my old books, CDs, DVDs and videos to the library: I told them, take what you want and sell the rest for library funds. Been doing that for years - until the time I phoned to arrange a pickup and was told that they didn't "need" books any more. Surprised me: what else is a library for? I finally took them to my local charity shop - hope they found a good home

The saddest part of this is that Daughter, having had the treatment at others' hands, now spends a lot of her time doing the same to us. Hardly a conversation unfolds without scathing put downs of me or OH making their appearance by the second sentence. It makes me so exhausted and unhappy, I scarcely like to answer the 'phone any more, in case I have to endure another tirade about how useless, dirty, idiotic, lazy, forgetful, senile, wasteful or stupid we are. She seems to forget how readily available and generous, understanding and forgiving we are, though. Maybe too much so.
Sanbaz, my Dear, you aren't alone with your problems.

sadly, one sometimes learns that the best form of defence is attack, get other people before they get a chance to get you - and don't believe that they won't if they can.

It's possible taht she doesn't realise what she's doing, or how much she's doing it - would it be possible to tape her without her knowing and then play it back to her? maybe ask her what she'd feel if that had been said to her instead of by her?

The problem with being patient and foreberaing is that it's taken for granted; if that's all you ever show, people get used to it and so don't even notice it any more.

That rung a bell, so I went to see if I could find the reason. "There is, however, a limit at which forbearance ceases to be a virtue" - Edmund Burke.

It's easy to offer advice from the sidelines! but the situation is doing you and your OH no favours - and it's not really doing your daughter any favours, either.

I really like that quotation by Edmund Burke, Fran - it's one I haven't come across before. We do have an inkling that her personality maybe compromised by a level of autism - she does fulfill a rather high level of relevant criteria, and our brilliant, but difficult friend, a contender for a Nobel prize in the field of pathology, who is autistic himself, says he has very little doubt about it. I suppose it takes one to know one. There's not much we can do about it, I think, and she would go ballistic if we suggested it to her. She and I have regular, excoriating, destructive, tearful arguments because I refuse to sit down under the onslaught, and I swear I shall never have anything ever again to do with her, but she's our daughter, and of course, my resolve doesn't last. It is very, very destructive.

That's the best laugh I've had for ages!! :)))))))

..Sorry, just read all the comments and toward the end they are very serious...would hate you to think I meant your comments were a good laugh ladies...just the Good Wife Guide of course! :))

Yes, I'm sorry, I came on a bit heavy there - haven't had a very good day (understatement of the month) - in fact felt like screaming and kicking someone. Bit calmer now.

you and me both, Gattina! no probs, Karen, I've done the same thing myself *s*

So sorry to hear of your problems with your daughter, Gattina, and yours with your enviable genius, Fran. Gattina - I hope that sometime, somehow, things improve in your relationship.
Fran - keep on standing up for yourself! You're great! Other people's jealousies don't matter - that's their problem. (((((((((((((((oo)))))))))))))))) (Big hugs to you both)

LOL Nariz, realised that a bit late, but trying to act on it. I mostly don't care - I'll go whistling down the road when I feel good, and who cares if others raise their eyebrows at a woman whistling?

*s* It's just now and then that i forget to remember that I'm the most important person in my life, and it's MY approval that matters most

No need for any apology Gattina! Hope you have a better day today. :)))

Thank you, KS, and GOOD for YOU, Fran! I am learning to do what I want, and what feels right to ME, and grow old, as I think I may have said before, disgracefully. It's fun.

*s* after all, I'm the only person that I HAVE to live with 24/7!

Good for you! Well said! I plan to grow old discragefully too, Gattina! Favourite poem : Jenny Joseph's "When I am an old woman I will wear purple, with a red hat that doesn't go, and spend all my pension on white gloves and dancing shoes, then say we have no money for butter." Bring it on!

I'll have to look that one up - it rings a vague bell, but the penny hasn't dopped yet.

Exactly,Nariz..my glasses have purple frames .:o))

It's one of my favourites! I have a purple sweater and matching tights, too. And white gloves. And a red hat. Sadly, no dancing shoes.

there ya go, Gattina!

http://www.seriouslysilver.co.uk/acatalog/CMN0004XL.Jpg

I used to tap dance, but I kept falling in the sink [har-har]